Why Jorge Posada was *probably* better than Jason Varitek.
Written by Joe Veno on July 14, 2009 – 11:29 PM -Anyone that reads my blog regularly knows that I pride myself on being objective. I go out of my way to try and give the most unbiased information that I know how to give, using mostly the numbers, although also applying what I see on an almost daily basis.
Being objective all the time ain’t easy though. Or at least trying to be.
And attacking something like this is no exception to the last statement. There are things that one sees day in and day out, things that cannot be summed up in the numbers, aspects of the game that can never truly be revealed accurately.
For my heart says that Jason Varitek is comparable to Jorge Posada, or has been. And I think “comparable” is accurate, for it is not like I am saying that Varitek was the better player. Posada will have a case for the Hall, although might fall short, while Tek will have had a great career for him personally, but will fall well short of the Hall of Fame.
But the numbers I have handy, they say that Posada was clearly the better player. Of course the numbers, as I have to make clear, do not come close to summarizing everything that a catcher does, especially two players that are not only solid backstops, but also regarded as being great teammates.
But Posada was the better catcher. I know that Varitek does things, things I cannot quantify. But the offensive numbers are clearly in Jorge’s favor. Clearly. His career OPS+ of 124 is 23 percent better than Varitek’s (101). Varitek has held his own at the plate batting .261/.346/.441. Solid, impressive…better than the average catcher. But Posada has batted .277/.380/.478. Clearly, Posada has the edge there.
I have always said that Jorge is the one Yankee that has actually been underrated throughout his career. There are the Jeter’s, ARod’s, Rivera’s who all recieve praise on an almost daily basis. But Posada has been a backbone for that team for twelve seasons (excluding his first couple, partial seasons). He never gets his due, well, aside from getting his due in the form of an extravagant contract. But really, as underrated Yankees go, Posada is right up near the top of the list.
But Varitek too is brilliant on the intangibles side. However, if anything, Varitek could almost have been overrated over the duration of his career. Because he definitely hasn’t been underrated, for he gets his due, his props, respect from people who love the game. He has always had that going, never a moment that Tek hasn’t been praised for doing things that are unquantifiable.
And most of it is justified. He is a great captain, a great leader, a great clubhouse prescence. And apparently he calls a good game 
Whether or not he actually does is unknown. But when smart, intelligent men like Theo Epstein take notice, and when Bill James evens starts to take notice, then we know there has been something special, something beyond the numbers.
However, what hasn’t Posada done? Does he call a change-up when a fastball needs to be wizzed in? Does he call for a fastball up in and in when the situation calls for a breaking ball down and away? I dont know, but I doubt it. Posada has been every bit the player Tek has, and more–probably.
I say probably because this is not fact, and I do not want it to come off as fact. For all we know, we will perish and the answers will come alive in the form of a tablature. It will say who the greatest player is, the greatest pitcher, the greatest shortstop. And we will find out who the better player was. Maybe it says Varitek, who knows.
But I am pretty adamant that Posada has a much stronger case for the Hall, and pretty deliberate in my mindset thinking that Posada was the better player.
Again, the catchers job and success doesn’t show up in the numbers, not all of the time. Only some of the time. But Posada has a career WARP1 of 64, while Varitek’s is only 34.6. Nearly double. So are these intangibles that I see on an everyday basis worth the difference? I really don’t no, but my gut tells me no.
Tek has been a solid player, and a great teammate/leader. But Jorge Posada has been those and more. A better hitter, a supposedly great guy, and a great positive influence.
OPS+ is far from everything. And WARP is just a metric. But where everything else is pretty close, the two seem to be the difference in ultimately making Jorge Posada a better player than Jason Varitek.
Tags: Boston Red Sox, Jason Varitek, Jorge Posada, New York YankeesPosted in Boston Red Sox, New York Yankees | 12 Comments »
July 15th, 2009 at 12:34 AM
“For all we know, we will perish and the answers will come alive in the form of a tablature”
sweet! you’re going all Mormon on us…listen if joseph smith ever sticks his head into a hat again and finds those golden tablets he lost…maybe , just maybe they will say that Tek is better. i doubt it. but i know you love your captain, and i love that you love your captain. nice piece.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:25 PM
“However, what hasn’t Posada done?” Well, he hasn’t caught four no-hitters! Has he even caught one?
Also, Posada may be a better “hitter” as evidenced by this article/interview from the New York Daily News:
“Posada has never been considered a top defensive catcher, but his bat gives the Yankees a weapon that few other teams have – one that would disappear with Francisco Cervelli or Jose Molina behind the plate.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/06/23/2009-06-23_jorge_posada_catches_up.html
But like the article says, it doesn’t appear that he is the better “catcher” or teammate for that matter, especially given the recent stories (and one that goes back to 1999 when he was benched in favor of Joe Girardi because the pitching staff preferred Girardi behind the plate).
Here’s a couple of articles addressing that:
http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/sports/baseball/yankees/Jorge-Posada-Catching-Heat-For-Yankee-Pitching.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/sports/baseball/16yanks.html?_r=1&ref=sports
And when was the last time you heard any pitcher, past or present rave about Posada’s abilities behind the plate?
July 15th, 2009 at 3:35 PM
Did Posada catch Cone’s PG? Or do I have my time-frames all messed up? I never paid attention to the AL back then.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:43 PM
David,
I do understand your point. That there is more to catching then hitting, obviously. I thought I made it clear in my post by using the word “probably.” But have you heard that Jorge was not a good teammate? I never said he was a *better* teammate. I simply said that he possessed a lot of the intangibles that Tek has, although is better with the stick.
July 15th, 2009 at 4:18 PM
posada is a great team mate from all accounts and many say he is the defacto team captain
BTW peter, girardi caught that game
July 15th, 2009 at 4:20 PM
here is the box score…
Wilton Guerrero
dh 3 0 0 0
Terry Jones
cf 2 0 0 0
James Mouton
cf 1 0 0 0
Rondell White
lf 3 0 0 0
Vladimir Guerrero
rf 3 0 0 0
Jose Vidro
2b 3 0 0 0
Brad Fullmer
1b 3 0 0 0
Chris Widger
c 3 0 0 0
Shane Andrews
3b 2 0 0 0
a-Ryan McGuire
ph 1 0 0 0
Orlando Cabrera
ss 3 0 0 0
Javier Vazquez
p 0 0 0 0
Bobby Ayala
p 0 0 0 0
TOTALS 27 0 0 0
July 15th, 2009 at 4:59 PM
Cool, Javier Vazquez was the opposing pitcher. That about sums up his career.
July 15th, 2009 at 5:03 PM
here is the other box score
NAME POS AB R H RBI
Chuck Knoblauch
2b 2 1 1 0
Derek Jeter
ss 4 1 1 2
Paul O’Neill
rf 4 1 1 0
Bernie Williams
cf 4 0 1 1
Tino Martinez
1b 4 0 1 0
Chili Davis
dh 3 1 1 0
Ricky Ledee
lf 4 1 1 2
Scott Brosius
3b 2 1 0 0
Joe Girardi
c 3 0 1 1
David Cone
p 0 0 0 0
TOTALS 30 6 8 6
July 16th, 2009 at 1:36 PM
Obviously Posada is the better offensive player, but I think I’ll echoing a few voices here: Varitek calls a better game behind the plate than Posada. Besides looking at the ho-hitters, look at what happened to the Red Sox pitching staff in 2006 when Varitek got hurt. He missed only the month of August that season. The Red Sox were 63 and 41 heading into that month. They went 9-21 in August without Varitek behind the plate. They recovered to go 14-14 after his return.
More pitching numbers from that season: in August without Varitek: BA .314, TB 548, OPS+ 131, and team ERA 5.81. The high’s from any other month: BA .282, TB 419, OPS+ 106, ERA 4.70.
The terrible swan-dive the team took in 2006 during Tek’s injury was why Epstein came to value Varitek to the extent that he does. In fairness, Wakefield was injured for that stretch as well. But that doesn’t explain why Schilling, Beckett, and Lester all had their worst months of the season in August. Lester pitched so poorly they sent him back down to the minors.
July 16th, 2009 at 10:48 PM
I don’t disagree that Tek is the better “game caller,” it is just so hard to prove that, which makes me want to shy away from saying he is better. If I have no real evidence, I tend to stay away from that, and what a catcher does behind the dish is so hard to quantify anyway.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:01 PM
Exactly, and I recognize that one month doesn’t present a very large statistical sample size. But, reliability issues aside, that August shows a pretty huge spike–over a run a game. And anyone who watched the Sox that season had no doubts what caused it (the fact that Schilling and Beckett immediately improved upon Tek’s return further supports the cause).
July 17th, 2009 at 1:48 PM
We were also short quality pitchers during that month of the season…but yes, I do think Tek does well back there